The Freelancer’s Guide To Survival: The Mental Health Side of Freelancing

In this episode I discuss the mental health challenges we face as freelancers.

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All right, so here we are episode two, season two. I didn’t realize I’d stick with this and get so far and change the format as I’ve been going along. But in this episode, I really wanted to talk about the mental health side of things. What’s life like as a freelancer. What are we going through? And hopefully give some advice and I’ll share how I’ve been doing and dealing with things so that you can benefit. So really this is the kind of, what have I learned so far. So I hope you like the music is supposed to create a nice kind of mood, so you can hear my voice and steady pace. It’s supposed to be a gentle, gentle thing, and my voice is kind of like that.

So the mental health side of being a freelancer, as some of you may know him full time, voice artist. I had no idea what I was getting myself into when back in January, I decided to go full time in this. And I say, I had no idea. Yes I knew how to do the voiceover stuff. I knew how to do the technical staff. But what I didn’t do was treat it like a business. Really what we are is a scaled down version of a business. So any freelancers like that, they it’s just them. It’s a business, but we’re expected to treat it like a big business. So in other words, when you pay for a service, which is what we provide, it comes with certain, I mean, we, we agree the price beforehand with the client, and then we deliver it. And often what happens is they then say, Hey, you need to make these fixes, and which is fine, and quite often they say, Hey, we’ve got these changes. Now I had a client recently reach out to me and they were used to using other freelancers on Upwork and sites like that, and they said, “Hey, I’ve got a bunch of changes”. I said,” Yeah, sure, this is how much it will cost.” And they said “what ,it’s not free?” And I said, “If you think about it, those changes were made by you guys. I’ve delivered on the original project that you wanted. Now you’ve got a bunch of changes. That means I’m going to have a bunch more work. And suddenly my work’s doubled because you’re asking me to read this whole script again. Sure, It’s not going to be the same rate, but this is what I charge.” This is why charge and, you know, you keep it reasonable. And that’s been a game changer for me because when one of the game changes, when I was initially doing voiceover, there was a whole expectation of as machine, like the lower paid clients. And these are generally people in countries where their currency is worth less because they can’t afford. They have smaller budgets to work with. And I’m talking about Asia and specifically I’m talking about India or Pakistan. I’m from Indian heritage. So I know what it’s like, Indians like to barter. I think I’m one of the rare Indians that isn’t very good at it. I’ve kind of sometimes force myself to do it, but usually it’s like, if I liked the person, I’ll just pay the price. And, but with these guys, it was like, Oh, they try and squeeze you with more and more changes. And suddenly you feel awful. Cause it’s like, hang on. You feel bad. Because you know the other thing, freelancers these days, that I know of, are getting work through freelance websites like Fiverr or Upwork, people per hour, you know, um, because who has the contacts, you know, that many context to sustain this on a full time basis. And those sites are lucrative. If you provide a professional service, you can make a good living out of this.

When I started off, I was only making that first month. I made 500. $500 or pounds back then. And then I, the second month was $1,100 and then the third month was 1100, 1200. And then, you know, by month four it was like three and a half thousand dollars. And then. It went up to 5,000 and then it went up to 7,000 and then last month I did 9,000, you know? I’m on an upward trend, which is great, which is really good. This issue is not just about making the money, right. The money will come if your service is good. But it comes down to you know, how long, how many skills do you need? Your rate will be based on, you know, whether you can do freelancing for a living is based on how good is your quality of service and how quickly can you deliver the work? So, you know, you have to be realistic with the time it takes. I mean, to do nine grand a month, I was spending two or three hours a day. The busiest day, one day I did $1,680 finish all the work in that day it took me five and a half hours. So it’s great. You know, but there’s always that thing that if like I was saying, if you’re an Upwork, fiverr, those kinds of things, we ended up getting rated by these people. And sometimes a bad client can hang that over your head and they’ll say, Oh, well, if you want me to rate you highly then you need to do the changes. At  which case you have to decide immediately the point they do that is like, this person does not have ethics. And you know, you can, you can be honest with them and say, Hey, I need to make a living. I need to feed my family here. I’m relying on this income and if you’re giving me change after change, I won’t be able to sustain this. I can’t afford it. Cause people just think, Oh, you’re just reading the script, right? But there’s a lot more to it as I’ve realized. You’re reading a script, but it’s like, how do you know what to emphasize on. How do you know how to sell the script and make it your own and bring life to it without being cheesy?

A lot of people, when I was a new voice artist, I would talk like using tonations, and unfortunately it was just, it was too much. So then I got training and I learned when to use it, when not to use it. And it’s the thing like less is often more. But you also have to look at the client, which country they’re from sometimes. I had a client in just this week I had a job and I did an order and it was, you know, I kept, it was a, it was a good read and I thought they’re not going to be able to tell that it’s a good read. They are so used to hearing the high intonation, the pitch shifts. You know, typical, cheesy, but it works in those countries, cause you know, they’re all doing it. All the adverts that customs plants are hearing. So, you know, I went through the script again and off now sometimes if it’s a short script, I’ll give like two variants anyway. So they’ve got options to choose from, but back to topic, I mean, it’s the mental health side of things as a freelancer. It’s, it’s a tough field. It’s tough because you’re on your own. It’s a very lonely field. Working as a freelancer.  You don’t have anyone else in the team? Rarely, rarely. I mean, yes I spoke to a freelance journalist and chews at the BBC and she was like, she was asking me for advice on how to do voiceover stuff. And I thought, hang on  you’re working for BBC, but you know, there’s no harm in asking for advice from people. I gave her a bunch of advice. I don’t think she followed it. She didn’t even thank me afterwards. She was like, I have to go now. Okay. Bye. I was like, alright mate, you’re asking me for help. I’ve spent like two hours on the phone with you. Yeah, it’s interesting. 

 Unfortunately I suppose that’s the downside of when you become a content provider, on a show like this, you do attract people who just expect things for free and that’s science. So it’s very lonely. It’s really lonely because some of these freelancers, GOd knows you, like especially as a BBC journalist they need to have the mentality of getting work, getting that next story. Doesn’t matter who you’re going to hurt along the way. It needs to be. The story needs to be sensationalized. Otherwise their editors aren’t interested. That’s the way it is, but getting that balance is crucial. You need to talk, you need to be able to talk to people and feel listened and. As I said before, this is what, one of the reasons I’ve made this podcast it’s if nobody listens to it, it’s okay. You know, I don’t need this to be a success. I’m doing that on the voiceover stuff on my own. And I did my first hire recently, so I’ve got a full time employee now who helps me with, all kinds of things.

So as a freelancer, you have to kind of think, you know, what are the skills it’s not just about delivering the product? It’s not just about if you’re a freelance writer, it’s not just about writing, you know, about the service that you provide. It’s also about finding clients. It’s also about balancing that workload. One of the things that I’m struggling with right now is how do I, how do I manage a holiday? Now I’ve spoken to another voice artist, friend of mine who was very successful. He’s doing about $30,000 a month and I said to him, What about holidays? How do you manage holidays? And he said, he takes four days. He tries to take not more than four days in a row. So he’ll go on a weekend and have one day, either side. So he’ll go on a Friday to Monday that’s how he do it. And I was like, what, what kind of life is that? That’s not life. That’s not the life I want. But you know, he’s got commitments. It’s what he has chosen. It’s what he’s built. 

So as a freelancer, it’s like, this is the balance that we’re constantly juggling. One of the things is obviously, can we strive for excellence? How do we provide the best service?, To stand out from the crowd? How do we do better and better? So if somebody finds out about us, how do we get them to come back? How do we get them to come back to us? And customer retention is a big thing. Cause if you’re bleeding clients and that’s a high chance you’re going to beat, you’re going to be, it’s difficult to make it a success. What you need to do is every month, you need to have more repeat clients than the month before. Even if it’s one more, you need to build your repeat clients. And that’s, that’s been my game plan, but at the same time, that means that I have to be wary of the clients I take on because it’s like when I started this, you know, I had, I dunno, four or five guys, and then repeat clients the month one, and then month two  increased. Now I’ve got, you know, quite a few more repeat clients and that’s how you, you increased stability to your income and keep growing it because the repeat clients is where you’re going to get your customers and your income will start stabilizing over time and increasing.

One of the things is marketing as a freelancer, we have to keep marketing ourselves. So what do we, what do we say? That is something that other colleagues, friends who work full time, They don’t need to worry about that. They don’t worry about, unless there is specifically in sales, they don’t need to worry about their income. They know the company will take care of them because the company is bringing in enough money to sustain their wages and the wages of their colleagues. You see, when you are a freelancer and your colleagues become your friends, right? So when you’re a freelancer, you lose all of that. There’s no stability. It’s just you and your service and that’s it. So you have to figure out how to get clients and how to keep them. Usually people start off at low rates, low prices. We work our way up there and you know, I would advise going as many freelance sites as you can because that’s one way, but at the same time, when the work starts flowing, how do you manage it? How do you still go on holiday? And I would say, you need to budget it. You need to set your targets and say, you know what, if I make this month, This is my minimum target each month. And this is, this is every year. And then I can afford to do this full time. And if I hit those targets, great. If I don’t, then I need to work out how to hit them. I need to increase my marketing efforts. Do I need to make more contacts? Do I need to, you know, reach out to more clients and start making phone calls? 

It is very much of a case of striving for that excellence, doing what you need to do to keep those clients at the same time. When you start off in this field, you’re going to be like, you’re going to be hungry for work. You can have more time and clients more time than work. Right. And then it will start shifting. Slowly you’ll get more coming in, all work. More work and clients are testing you. Oh yeah. I’ll give you a test project. Sure. I’ll try you out. And if you’re good though, use you again and again and again, and suddenly you’re hitting decent within a matter of idea, six, seven, eight, nine months within a year, you’ll be hitting decent, decent money. And you can earn more than you’d ever be able to and work them for somewhere else. That’s the other thing, but you’ve got to remember that income that comes in my advice is stick it into a company limit, create your own limited company. As soon as you can. Pay for an accountant, expense, everything, every cost that you have, if you’re entertaining, clients know, go out and get business, you can expense all that. Stationary, computer equipment, all the stuff which costs a lot of money. And once you get to the level and then you need to work out the fact that how can I sustain this in the long term? How can I have a good life? Not just working all the time.

One of the things I did recently was work for Qatar airways and one of the mistakes I made was, when they give me a script, I usually do it very quickly. In fact, that’s been my strength, but also it’s come to bite me. It’s become a two edged sword because now people expect it. And then it comes to a point where you need to reset those expectations and say, Hey you know, I’ve made some changes and in order to manage the work load, the delivery times are going to take longer. I’ve now hired my assistant. One of the jobs he does is quality checks. Because I realized some of the longer reads that I was doing, they were, they were coming back with errors, which is normal. Right. You’re going to do a read. You’re going to miss it. And sometimes like the sound might not come out right on the microphone. Like you’re saying the word why instead of the word is while, but you say fast, it’s not well, but it sounds like why to the client. So you see, you have to go back and fix it. So what I do well, you might miss words or change words. The brain does all kinds of funny things and because you’re in free flow as well, right when you’re reading this stuff. So what I did just this week is tell my assistant, okay, we’re going to introduce a quality check system, quality control system, which is long form, which is probably 1500 words, a thousand words, 8000 words. I will then give it to my assistant. He’ll do a proof check. He’ll listen to it twice. And then he’ll note down any changes that I need to make any corrections. And then we’ll give these to the client. And the clients are happy because there’s less work for them. But of course that whole process costs more money. It takes more time. So you have to budget that in and over time, your clients will be like, Oh, okay. 

But generally I find that I’m getting about, I meansome shorter scripts, you make a lot more money on, but some scripts you can, you know, 250 pounds an hour in this field is, is kind of like right. 200 pounds of down 200, 210, 250 about right. Um, but that’s, you know, that’s a finished product by a professional voice artist including my assistant. Also having the assistant is kind of good because it means that I have somebody to bounce off on not alone. Right. So, you can only get to that level when you’re busier. You know, in order to hire someone it’s natural as businesses grow, you need help. One of the things we’ve been doing recently is reaching out to old clients and just saying, Hey It’s just reconnecting with them. Well, just to touch base. How’s it going? That’s all it takes, but it’s time. It’s effort and most freelancers aren’t good at that. So if you can’t do that, then hire somebody who can. So I’ve kind of touched upon, you know the mental health side. It is a lonely field. It’s trying to get that balance of holiday time together, not working too late every day. Responding initially to a client to manage the client’s expectations. If a client is in touch, yes respond to them and let them know, honestly, Hey, I’m out now. I can do this with an X amount of time. And I did an advert recently, like Qatar airways. It was on their social media and it had like 2 million views. I was for the champions league final because they were sponsoring both teams, uh, Byron Munich and PSG. And they were like, Oh, we need this done quick. Okay, sure. Did it. Had a quick change, did it. And I was due to go out with the family to meet some friends. And they then said that whilst I was driving, my wife was messaging him and they said, Hey, the director, we’ve gotten it to the director and you need to, you need to say this with much more emphasis. Can you do it? I was like, yeah. In about six hours, by the time I get back. Oh, is there any way that you can do it sooner? I was like, let me think about it. And I actually recorded it on my phone, in the car and I was screaming, screaming, uh, recording this voice cause it was like a screaming script, right? It was like a TV, commentator game, all this stuff. They used it, it worked, you know, not all voice overs need to be done in studios. That was an example of where one didn’t need to be done because it needed room ambience because the TV that they were listening to was in the background it worked really well. But it did, it did scare me because it was like, hang on a minute. What the heck can I not even have a life? And you know, that’s, that’s the thing, that’s the scary thing. 

And I just wanted to say to all freelancers, look,we are the elite workforce. We are good enough to make on our own. So do not ever hesitate. If you ever need to go back into work for someone else, you can, you’ll always have that. And you can always do freelance on the side and then work your way up that way. But for me, it was like, I cannot work for someone else. I have another business I’d run anyway, which wouldn’t allow me to do that, but it was like, I cannot work for someone else. I needed to increase my income. That was the desperateness because the other business I run is it’s my dad’s business. And he’s got no one else to run it. And he pays me mediocre salary. He pays me, I manage his own freaking business and I get paid not enough to even get decent mortgage if I want to move. So I’m kind of stuck. I’ve got house in London, really lucky, but I’m kind of stuck here cause I can’t afford to move anywhere else. Um, Whereas I see my friends. Right. And they’ve got like, they’ve, they’re doing well. And it did bother me initially, cause they’ve all got massive houses and I was like, Oh shit, am I doing something wrong here? Am I, am I messing up? Do I need to, you know, keep up with the Joneses. But to be honest, even today I was talking to my wife and, you know, we’re so content where we are. You don’t need a bigger house. All you need is a home, you know? And it’s worked for me. It’s big enough, things, good things are good. And yes, we all will, you know, this whole capitalism dream of. Bigger and better. It’s all bullshit. It’s all bullshit. You don’t need it. It’s not a need. It’s not like food. In fact, it will give you more worry. As soon as you buy something, as soon as you own it, we think that we own it. It owns you. You have to look after it. You’re worried about getting stolen. You have to manage it. This is going to cost you. So, you know, I’ve always been raised to live within my means, and that’s been another big adjustment that I’ve had, but now I’m earning effectively, let’s see how this year goes, but if I’m, you know, my aim is to double my income, what I earned from the other one and from freelance, if not more, I could add more from freelancing. A lot more. 

It’s a long long term game. And my other thing is if you are a freelancer and I think it’s important for us to have communities. Socialize, meet with other freelancers, have groups of people who understand what it’s like. You need to be able to be part of a community that you can go to, and it could be a Facebook group to start off with. But eventually I would say it’s better to have a group in, in real life. We can meet up with people, bunch of likeminded, people who understand the ups and downs of freelancing and you know, doesn’t have to be many. There’s a book I read, think and grow rich by. Yeah, the guy’s name thinking grow rich Napoleon Hill think and grow rich by Napoleon Hill. And he calls it a mastermind group. He created the, I think he invented the whole thing, the concept of a mastermind group, where you have a bunch of people together with the same goal and they meet up right. Maybe have food together, meet at once a month and they give each other their problems. It was like, Hey, I’m struggling with this, they’ll all have one common goal. So it might be they’re all freelancers or they want to be the only business or whatever it is, you know, they want to be better sports, people, whatever, whatever that similar goal is. You then over a period of time, you then become closer and closer to these guys and you end up having somebody to bounce off, you know, and socialize with and, and somebody who understands your way of life.

So I think I know what it’s like as a freelancer. It is tough, but it’s also very rewarding. You don’t have to work for someone else. Yes you have clients, but you can tell them to, you can say it in a nice way that you know, this relationship isn’t working out and we’re going to have to part ways because some clients who take all your time, then you know that they’re actually costing you money. So you have to drop them as fast as you can. Right. They’re a means to an end. Some of these guys are so tight they don’t even bother leaving a review. You built over time and to sustain life as a freelancer, we always have to adapt. And I know now that now it’s more important than ever being able to have multiple skills. I’ve always believed this. I’ve always known this, that we’re having one, one or two skill sets, not enough. You need to be robust. You know, the way of the company is changing you. You’re going to be not just, there’s not just a danger from AI. There’s danger from sites like flavor. People who can do it much cheaper. My sister is in construction and she’s getting people who, I told her about Fiverr and she’s found a whole bunch of people who can do planning and design and architecture and building control drawings from India. They’ve, they’ve qualified over here. They’ve done the UK exams, so they know what the laws are, what planning will happen. They’re a lot cheaper because they’re abroad now. Whether you like that or not, that’s the world we live in. It’s the internet. You can’t just have one skill set.

One day the biggest threat in the voiceover industry, as they thought with acting was, um, was this whole, you know, AI stuff with acting they’re like, Ooh, animation, or if there’s animations and you don’t need an actor anymore, but that hasn’t happened. They’re using actors to act, even though they’re using animation. Somebody needs to voice them. But what’s happening with the voiceover industry at the moment is that you can actually get software that you can read a couple of sentences and then it can fill in a few words here and there. Now the voice is quite complex because there’s so many different intonations. Like, let’s just say that. Let’s just say that word. There’s so many different intonations. You can put emphasis on different ways. You can put a breath in the middle. You can say there’s so many different intonations, you could say there’re so many intonations. You could say there’s so many intonations, right? You can get a computer to do that. But somebody has to tell the computer how to do that. And an AI might be able to work it out. Right. But then you need to slow it down to emphasize certain words. So, I mean there so complex speech and languages for an AI to do that. Everybody knows what robotics sounds like.It’s emotionless and a word when there’s a real voice, you can hear the difference. It’s that, especially because the scripts change. So yes, but on the back of our mind, we’re like, Hey, it can be a field where AI will take over and it could be.Elon Musk was saying only a few decades ago, we had pumps. How do we know we’re not in a matrix right now, the biggest game of all, you know, in a computer simulation Tyna to wire it up to computers, how do we know where even a body, you know? And there’s actually evidence towards that consciousness, can be influenced by collective attention and as a topic for another day, but today we were talking about mental health side of things.

So what really I’m saying is keep a balance, meditate, go for a walk, go for a meal, go for lunch every day, you’re earning it. You’re working hard. So do what you need to do.Love yourself and, you know, reward yourself regularly and celebrate those wins. You know, hit the target. Okay, say that you want to add. I dunno. Um, 30,000 most people are 30,000 and I can be at, I need to work for someone else, you know, what’s that, um, 1221 things. So, you know, roughly three grand a month. Um, then that’s your target? So it’s like, usually that’s what typical voice artists would earn about three grand a month. You can earn a lot more, but you have to figure that one out. Keep the balance. Once you hit three grand or whatever, my target is 12 grand a year. That’s when I started off this, I’ve just run 12 grand a year. And it still is that I’m not going to, I’m not going to get swamped and say, Hey, wow, I can earn 300,000, which is what my friend is doing. You know, there’s always that greed you all that always that striving, but I’m always going to say, Hey, if I hit my 12 grand a year, Then I’ve achieved year one targets. Cause that was my target. When I said beforehand, I’m not going to shift that just because I’m having a good few months, you know, things can change, change. And then, then I can, I don’t want to feel bad about the first year then.

So it’s like keep those targets and then, you don’t mind going for your holidays. Then you don’t, they’re just like, hang on, you keep things in perspective you know? And, um, for me every day is a holiday in this job. It feels like that sometimes. But, um, but of course it’s, it’s not like, right. It’s, uh, you’re, you’re working, you’re working on things. You keep your project, you know, keeping clients happy. I love that. I love the hustle. It is exciting for me. And so, go with that flow. Go with the excitement. There’s a guy I know Bashar. He said he’s either the guy, um, channeled by a guy called Darrel anchor. Beshara says his main messages. Follow your excitement. Follow your excitement. If I can leave you guys with anything after 40 minutes of rambling on and sharing myself role, it’s that follow your highest excitement when you do that? Everything will flow. Nothing else matters. Money will come. Everything will come. It will because you been living on a different plane to everyone else. It’s not fear based. You know, we watch the news every day we told, and this is such a negative world that we live in. Every day. We’re told that we’re told that because there’s evidence that there’s consciousness of influences, collective consciousness, influences reality. We know that I I’ll go through some proofs of that. I’m not in this one because that’s a massive topic. But the point is that we. When we look at things collectively, we influence reality. So watching the news and the negativity, we like becomes a fair base thing and it’s easier to, or easy to control.

I would say, when you’re following your highest excitement, then you’re, you’re going to doesn’t matter what, you know, does it really matter? What’s happening on the other side of the universe, if a, an asteroid collided with a planet and, and made it left a whole great massive crater. So why does it affect us if something’s happening on the other side of the world, focus on your own world, make that better, because that’s the only thing you really have control of. You don’t even have control over that. But you, but that’s your world and start with that as a building block. Sure. If something bothers you and let’s say that, let’s say you’re excited about, um, saving things, your inspiration, then follow that excitement. So let’s say that you want to make it a better world and the news is influencing you in and making you giving you enough. So I had a friend. Who was always talked to me about Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir. Oh, the Indians are so bad. The Indians were bad. Eventually. I just blocked her. Um, because she, she became so negative and I used to say, look, it’s, you know, you gotta. You know what it’s you have to view things if you’re, well, my message to her was look, if you’re passionate about it, great.

You know, start a Facebook group. People need to know about this stuff. Oh no, I don’t have time for that then. Why are you doing my head in, because I have no influence on this. She just wanted to vent. She was an angry person becoming a punchbag and I, and I gave her warnings and I was like, look, that’s not, that’s not what I’m about. You know, I want a peaceful life, but she didn’t stop. So I was like, okay, well, I’m sorry, but I’m not going to get beaten up anymore. No need to discuss anything further. She does want to change fine. I don’t need to listen to him. And I’m very much like that. You have to be like that. You have to protect your mind. You have to protect the voice, the negative stuff that’s being fed into that that comes from the news that comes from any message from outside the fear, you know, The fear I kneeled on washes, book conversations with God. He says the acronym of fear is false evidence appearing real. It’s not real. Fear is not real. I mean, the only time you need to fear is if a lion is about to chase you, or if there’s a volcano about to erupt, otherwise you don’t need fear. You don’t need to work in fear. You know, the fear is there to help you get off your ass and run. Right. So, you know, the whole fight or flight thing, once you get up and stand, but we’ve been fed so much fare in the news by people and it’s all negative focus on what is your reality? Turn the TV off, turn the news off and just focus on what you do, seeing around you. What is it that you’re actually, you know, People are nice people, good people. Everybody’s is there anybody that you see dying around you, poverty, or, you know, if you, if you’re moved and you see a homeless person, all buy my sandwich, no, get them some orange juice, get them some water, help them out show. But if you feel that’s your highest excitement that you want to do, do it. That’s why I used to do. Every time I was out with my friends in London. Um, I would end up sitting with some homeless person and, um, you know, I would, I would actually have more fun with them than with my friends who I, it became a bit so shallow of drinking and. The same old shit, really? Um, what are we doing? It becomes life becomes empty. So, um, but, but don’t think that that life cannot quickly become exciting because that homeless person that you’re walking past, you know, he’ll be more than happy for your company and he, you know, and help. And this there’s excitement and helping that person, if that’s what your excitement is.

There’s a time to have fun and enjoy yourself. But there’s only so much that you can do. Life becomes empty. And I was always striving for more, more like, why a why am I feeling so empty inside? And that’s part of the reason I’m doing this. I didn’t think I could talk for 15 minutes. 50 46 minutes so far, but I clearly had a lot to offload. An if I’m going to continue talking about things like this, the topics aren’t going to change. If you’re bored with me. Yeah. I’m afraid this is me. This is what these podcasts are going to be like this, you don’t get anything out of this podcast then, this isn’t for you. So if you did then great, let me know,  reach out to me. You can contact me at amrit@thebritishvoiceartist.com. We can sure be happy more than happy if you’ve got something, a topic that you want me to discuss. I can do that. If you want to be a, if you want to be part of this podcast and have a two way discussion, we can do that. Um, but, um, yeah, this is, this is I’m making two reasons. Number one is to give back number two is to stay sane in the mad world of freelancing, um, because it is learning as I said. Um, and really this is a, this is like me being me. The quiet man. It’s walking to the mic. Um, knowing that my energy, my emotions, my voice is going out there somewhere into the, um, into the ether. And, um, somebody out there might be hope. This helped you guys, um, Until the next topic. Bye.

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